54 replies to this topic

[antceleb12]

thanks for the post.

i also think that age plays a factor aswell as lifetstyle.

not sure if you saw the queens jubliee concert this year - but paul mccartney, elton john and stevie wonder sounded awful.

they are all getting on now.

I did not see that! I knew Elton's and John's voices were going downhill, but I had no idea about Stevie. I can;t say I'm totally surprised, though.

Sometimes I feel so lucky I'm a member of the forum. And this time I feel lucky :-)

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 PM ----------

And I didn't know singing is that hard and has so many rules. Man when I sing, I just sing. Naturally! lol

Haha, yeah. Classical singing has so many rules, and what makes it even more tricky is that each teacher has their own ideas about how to sing properly, so its a matter of interpretation. The rules are to help a singer sing in a way that he or she can sing loud and high without tiring, and to be able to retain their range and ability for years and years. There are even techniques to help jazz, pop, and musical theatre singers remain healthy.

I, too, much prefer singing without thinking too much about rules and technique! But after a lot of practice, it almost becomes second nature.

@antceleb - completely unrelated - since you are a vocal student, can you tell me how Mariah Carey does those dog-whistle notes? This doesn't seem like a normal vocal ability! Does she force that?

The whistle register phenomenon has always blown my mind. Basically, it's an extension of the head voice (for women) and falsetto (for men) register. A lot of women (particularly with classically-trained singers) have whistle registers. It's just that Mariah's is so high and so breathy in nature that gives it that distinct "whistle" sound. Minnie Ripperton, as mentioned by allisost, also had a WONDERFUL whistle register. How these women achieve it so (seemingly) effortlessly is beyond me.

For a better understanding of what "proper" vocal technique can do for a singer, watch this clip. It's from Mozart's "The Magic Flute." In it, the Queen of the Night is threatening her daughter with disownment if she does not kill her enemy, Sarastro. It's one of the most famous moments in opera, as you see here!

[Amy Jenna Harper]

I was thinking for example for opera it is more difficult,I have heard about how to breath,but didn't know that it is so difficult.

[JackofHearts]

The whistle register phenomenon has always blown my mind. Basically, it's an extension of the head voice (for women) and falsetto (for men) register. A lot of women (particularly with classically-trained singers) have whistle registers. It's just that Mariah's is so high and so breathy in nature that gives it that distinct "whistle" sound. Minnie Ripperton, as mentioned by allisost, also had a WONDERFUL whistle register. How these women achieve it so (seemingly) effortlessly is beyond me.

I've never liked Mariah's whistle. I don't really see the point in it even though it is a pretty amazing talent. I don't think it adds anything particularly interesting or important to a song.

[socubos]

I study music and voice in college right now, plus I sing jazz and classical, so I am constantly having to think about these things.

Aside from Amy's drinking and drugs, there is a LOT that goes into proper singing technique - even with pop music. Her singing was wonderful, but not technically correct in many ways. Especially when she does a lot of the high passages and runs (especially in "Cupid") in her belt - that is not particularly healthy. The vocal chords are thinner than paper and are very small. I can guarantee that combined with her lack of technique, as well as her drinking and drug usage, she probably had vocal nodules (small blisters and markings that are damaging to the voice).

Another part of it is her posture and how she supports with the breath. She often bent and breathed in ways natural to her, but not healthy. Her posture often doesn't allow her breath to flow properly, causing a lack of support. The proper way to breath is from the diaphragm (located right below the rib-cage), not the shoulders. And a healthy way of supporting your voice is to breath from the diaphragm and keep the air "spinning" (keeping a steady stream of air flowing). Also, constriction in the throat (when it gets tight due to lack of support or uncomfortable ranges) could have also been a problem.

It is hard to tell what exactly about her technique was good and what wasn't without close observation of her, but generally speaking, she did not have (as most pop and musical theatre singers do not) the best musical technique. But, I bet that good technique might have limited her vocal creativity.

However, I do not think her technique was terrible. As a matter of fact, Whitney Houston's technique was AWFUL. Whenever her jaw shook, it was a sign of jaw tension and poor support. Her belting was not healthy and ruined her voice. I think that had she not done drugs, her voice would have still rapidly declined. During her "Bodyguard" tour, she was instructed to cancel her tour because of vocal nodules, but didn't. She got surgery, but that does not fix the problem entirely. Aretha Franklin also has poor technique, which is why her voice has drastically declined over the years. However, look at Patti LaBelle. She belts like crazy just like Aretha, but she can still do it today like she could do 40 years ago - because of good technique.

I can tell you that Mariah Carey's voice is going downhill fast. In general, when women belt, it is NOT healthy. There is healthy belting, but few women know how to do it properly. Mariah belts improperly and her whistle register is suffering, too.

Comparatively to some of these ladies, Amy's technique was not that bad. Part of it was she didn't try to belt as much as these other ladies did.

What are u talking about? Whitney Houston had GREAT technique in her belting, and in her prime, her technique was amazing. She could sing the words so correct and great and her belting was very in comfortable range for her. She could sing so easily, especially in ANY live concert until 1996. Thats how she is known about, slaying every song in live better than in the studio. Whitney's main problem was nodules and drugs which prevented her voice, and made it huskier and more darker. The jaw shooking was because her husband did beat her, and this was not because of her technique. WHitney from 1985-1996 was UNTOUCHABLE, and with AMAZING TECHNIQUE, there was no other female who could reach her singing and technique. Even Mariah. The "bodyguard" tour was about to cancel because of those nodules, but she still got the great technique at that time.
After 1996, Whitney got very heavily into drugs, and alcohol, and her behavior became erratic and she got few incidents from Bobby, he beat her, she smoked (Smoking cause so much destruction to a voice) and Whitney lost BREATHING control. Thats what was the MAIN issue with her. her voice, technique still was there, but breathing was so bad. After 2001 she could barely sing a live song, but the voice and technique was there...

Now, Mariah... Mariah had WONDERFUL technique and voice and belting from 1990 until 1997 and for some reason her live performances started to suck, she started to lip and prerecord vocals. Her head belting note was fading away, and she couldnt sing the way she was used to. there was NOT a chance u could hear Mariah high note after 97 LIVE because she was prerecording the vocals, and lip synching them. But Mariah had also AMAZING voice and technique. But nobody ever know what was REALLY happened with her voice. We will never know...

Whitney 1985-1996 and Mariah 1990-1997 was UNTOUCHABLE forces with their voices and techniques.

The most unhealthy belting i ever heard was Christina Aguilera... God this girl, i dont know how she still got a voice...

Amy Winehouse technique was also AMAZING. But when she was SOBER. At some reason her live performances she got carried away, and this drinking and drugs made her away from the actual singing. Amy could SLAM a song live better from the CD. I compare Amy's to Whitney technique. But unfrtunately, there was a lot of reasons they couldnt show their full potential.

[Cecilia]

@socubos - @antceleb12 isn't saying that Whitney (or Amy) didn't have vocal control or that singing didn't come naturally to her. This is about singing technique, about how a singer supports their voice and how they preserve it. Whitney did not have any formal training and put a lot of strain on her voice due to her lack of "classical" technique. That doesn't mean shewasn't talented or that she didn't sound good doing it, but it was damaging to her vocal chords.

[JackofHearts]

Whitney 1985-1996 and Mariah 1990-1997 was UNTOUCHABLE forces with their voices and techniques.

That basically proves [MENTION=742]antceleb12[/MENTION]'s point. They were great singers during that time and because they lacked adequate, professional training the strain they put on themselves while singing damaged their vocal cords and is why they were never as good as they had been.
Also, that is why professionals such as opera singers and many musical theatre performers can sing great well into their adult and senior lives.

[AnnaAnna]

Whitney Houston had always the thing with her jaw.
And she was in drugs before she had married Bobby Brown. But yes: these two were another relationship

I saw her live in the O2-Arena in Berlin during her last tour and it was a complete desaster. I was there with my sister and yes, we had known this before, but we went, because we thought, maybe it will be the last time......

Adele by the way had work done on her vocal chords last year. And she is really young.

[amylove]

Amy was 22 when she recorded back to black... Adele was almost 22 so they were both very young when they recorded and I think Amy's natural talent outweighs hers. Can't say about the technique though. I guess most people (who I would want to listen to) have problems with that! I think Adele's a little young to be having surgery already... or is this a normal thing in the singing world? lol

Now I wonder... are some people naturally better technically than others? Or is this something that can only be learned? When people compare Amy to Billie Holiday I kind of get irritated because from what I can tell Billie had no training and Amy seemed to have some...

Personally I think Amy's voice would have aged okay...I think because she started out with such a soulful/mature voice.

---------- Post added at 07:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 AM ----------

antceleb12 isn't saying that Whitney (or Amy) didn't have vocal control or that singing didn't come naturally to her. This is about singing technique, about how a singer supports their voice and how they preserve it. Whitney did not have any formal training and put a lot of strain on her voice due to her lack of "classical" technique. That doesn't mean shewasn't talented or that she didn't sound good doing it, but it was damaging to her vocal chords.

Thanks for clearing this up... at first I was a little confused as well. But if you have good technique wouldn't this make you seem effortless?

[Birdieava]

sounds like (just like athletes, or dancers with their bodies), you have to take care of your voice if you are a singer
i personally prefer amy's raw style, straight out from the guts ...

but anyways, this is interesting - sooo much 'work'!!!

After her triumphant, record-breaking year, Adele faced surgery—and silence. With her voice back, she opens up to Jonathan Van Meter about fame, family, and what the future holds.
Every singer knows the List: citrus, vinegar, mint, dairy, spicy or fried foods, fizzy drinks, caffeine, cigarettes, and alcohol. These are the vocal cords’ enemies. And when one has a five-octave contralto as dynamic, award-winning, money­making, and record-breaking as Adele Laurie Blue Adkins does, one figures out how to avoid these things. Some require less effort than others. Mint? Vinegar? Feh. Cigarettes? Not so easy. Over the few days that I spend around Adele, I see her sneak a fag here and there. No one is perfect. But alcohol? For a once hard-drinking South London pub girl who has admitted that she has written some of her best songs after a few belts, I would have thought this might present something of a challenge. Not so much, it turns out. Adele hasn’t had a drink since last June. She gave it up cold turkey right around her birthday (May 5) last year. “Don’t like drinking anymore,” she says in an accent that falls somewhere between Eliza Doolittle and David Beckham. “I think I got it out of my system. D’yaknowhaImean?”

http://www.vogue.com...one-and-only/#1

[antceleb12]

What are u talking about? Whitney Houston had GREAT technique in her belting, and in her prime, her technique was amazing. She could sing the words so correct and great and her belting was very in comfortable range for her. She could sing so easily, especially in ANY live concert until 1996. Thats how she is known about, slaying every song in live better than in the studio. Whitney's main problem was nodules and drugs which prevented her voice, and made it huskier and more darker. The jaw shooking was because her husband did beat her, and this was not because of her technique. WHitney from 1985-1996 was UNTOUCHABLE, and with AMAZING TECHNIQUE, there was no other female who could reach her singing and technique. Even Mariah. The "bodyguard" tour was about to cancel because of those nodules, but she still got the great technique at that time.
After 1996, Whitney got very heavily into drugs, and alcohol, and her behavior became erratic and she got few incidents from Bobby, he beat her, she smoked (Smoking cause so much destruction to a voice) and Whitney lost BREATHING control. Thats what was the MAIN issue with her. her voice, technique still was there, but breathing was so bad. After 2001 she could barely sing a live song, but the voice and technique was there...

Now, Mariah... Mariah had WONDERFUL technique and voice and belting from 1990 until 1997 and for some reason her live performances started to suck, she started to lip and prerecord vocals. Her head belting note was fading away, and she couldnt sing the way she was used to. there was NOT a chance u could hear Mariah high note after 97 LIVE because she was prerecording the vocals, and lip synching them. But Mariah had also AMAZING voice and technique. But nobody ever know what was REALLY happened with her voice. We will never know...

Whitney 1985-1996 and Mariah 1990-1997 was UNTOUCHABLE forces with their voices and techniques.

The most unhealthy belting i ever heard was Christina Aguilera... God this girl, i dont know how she still got a voice...

Amy Winehouse technique was also AMAZING. But when she was SOBER. At some reason her live performances she got carried away, and this drinking and drugs made her away from the actual singing. Amy could SLAM a song live better from the CD. I compare Amy's to Whitney technique. But unfrtunately, there was a lot of reasons they couldnt show their full potential.

I have to disagree with you. First, good diction (singing the words well) and using good sining technique are not the same. Also, just because it appears easy to do, it doesn't mean that (1) it is, or (2) it's correct singing. If you listen to even some of her early recordings, there are times when she belts that you can hear the strain in her voice ("How Will I Know"). Just because her belt SOUNDS good, it doesn't mean at all that it is healthy. Trust me, that belt she had is not.

Also, the jaw thing was not caused by her husband beating her, because she's always had that, and it is a result of poor technique. That's called jaw tension.

I would also like to point out that no one is diminishing Whitney's talent at all, so don't take my criticism as a personal insult. However, what I am saying is that she did not take proper care of her voice or use it in a way that was healthy to years of wonderful music making.

-

As for Mariah, the reason why her voice started slipping was not because she lip-synced performances. It takes YEARS of not singing at all for ability to start to slip - and even then, with practice you can get a lot of it back. No, instead, it was Mariah's lack of proper technique that did her in. How she SOUNDED has nothing to do with it. It's how she uses her voice, her breath, etc. to keep healthy. She is 40 years old and already loosing her touch a little. Grant it, she's in a whole lot of better shape than Whitney was at that age, but she could stand to take some voice lessons (which don;t have to be for just improving vocal quality, but vocal health as well).

[socubos]

I have to disagree with you. First, good diction (singing the words well) and using good sining technique are not the same. Also, just because it appears easy to do, it doesn't mean that (1) it is, or (2) it's correct singing. If you listen to even some of her early recordings, there are times when she belts that you can hear the strain in her voice ("How Will I Know"). Just because her belt SOUNDS good, it doesn't mean at all that it is healthy. Trust me, that belt she had is not.

Also, the jaw thing was not caused by her husband beating her, because she's always had that, and it is a result of poor technique. That's called jaw tension.

I would also like to point out that no one is diminishing Whitney's talent at all, so don't take my criticism as a personal insult. However, what I am saying is that she did not take proper care of her voice or use it in a way that was healthy to years of wonderful music making.

-

As for Mariah, the reason why her voice started slipping was not because she lip-synced performances. It takes YEARS of not singing at all for ability to start to slip - and even then, with practice you can get a lot of it back. No, instead, it was Mariah's lack of proper technique that did her in. How she SOUNDED has nothing to do with it. It's how she uses her voice, her breath, etc. to keep healthy. She is 40 years old and already loosing her touch a little. Grant it, she's in a whole lot of better shape than Whitney was at that age, but she could stand to take some voice lessons (which don;t have to be for just improving vocal quality, but vocal health as well).

I don't take ANYTHING as personal insult;)
Actually i wasnt comparing those abilities i just pointed them. The jaw tension is often in singers. But when Bobby beat her it made it worse. See her JW era. her Jaw was about to drop and her tongue was out all the time when she opened her mouth to sing. But still her technique was great at her prime.
I never pointed there was healthy belts. I pointed the belts of Christina Aguilera was the most unhealthy. Beyonce also have very unhealthy belts.
Mariah's life was different. She wasnt heavy in drugs, she didnt had abusive relationship, all about her was butterflies and flowers. At the age of 40 Whitney already was very damaged from smoking marijuana and coke... there was NO WAY she could stay the same. She lost shape, (30th anniversary of Michael Jackson career) she was basically skeleton. Her breathing was gone... she couldnt even talk... The stress also. I don't think Mariah even lived that, although she had breakdown in 2001 and became alcoholic. Those things damage a voice. Whitney had surgery, but she couldnt save her voice, like Maria Callas. I don't say Mariah's voice were slipping away because of lypsinching. She lipsynch for reason, because her voice was slipping away and nobody knows why. Mariah will never sing "Vision Of Love" the same way....

Amy was about to go in same way if she stayed alive. At her range of using alcohol, smoking, stress, the ;life she was leading, even NOW if she was alive, she could lose part of her vocal ability. I noticed in "Body and Soul" she couldnt belt as she used to. Her voice was also got huskier.. so no way she could be like B2B era...unless she stop all this and go recovery...

[LiamSullivan]

Totally unrelated to the topic, but, Amy sounds amazing here!

[antceleb12]

I don't take ANYTHING as personal insult;)
Actually i wasnt comparing those abilities i just pointed them. The jaw tension is often in singers. But when Bobby beat her it made it worse. See her JW era. her Jaw was about to drop and her tongue was out all the time when she opened her mouth to sing. But still her technique was great at her prime.
I never pointed there was healthy belts. I pointed the belts of Christina Aguilera was the most unhealthy. Beyonce also have very unhealthy belts.
Mariah's life was different. She wasnt heavy in drugs, she didnt had abusive relationship, all about her was butterflies and flowers. At the age of 40 Whitney already was very damaged from smoking marijuana and coke... there was NO WAY she could stay the same. She lost shape, (30th anniversary of Michael Jackson career) she was basically skeleton. Her breathing was gone... she couldnt even talk... The stress also. I don't think Mariah even lived that, although she had breakdown in 2001 and became alcoholic. Those things damage a voice. Whitney had surgery, but she couldnt save her voice, like Maria Callas. I don't say Mariah's voice were slipping away because of lypsinching. She lipsynch for reason, because her voice was slipping away and nobody knows why. Mariah will never sing "Vision Of Love" the same way....

Amy was about to go in same way if she stayed alive. At her range of using alcohol, smoking, stress, the ;life she was leading, even NOW if she was alive, she could lose part of her vocal ability. I noticed in "Body and Soul" she couldnt belt as she used to. Her voice was also got huskier.. so no way she could be like B2B era...unless she stop all this and go recovery...

I'm impressed you know about Maria Callas! That's very true about the both of them.
I thought the same thing about Amy's "Body & Soul" performance. Actually, I was quite saddened when I first heard it - not because of her death, but because her voice alone was showed that too much damage was done. I don't know if her voice could have ever come back too much from that. It took me a few listenings to realize that her emotion and phrasing was just so impeccable, it could always outshine whatever vocal limitations impeded her. Same goes for Billie Holiday. One track, "I'm A Fool to Want You," off of her last album released in her life, "Lady In Satin," clearly shows the damage drugs took to her voice, but the power behind her emotions and her incredible phrasings outdid everything else.

[Amy Jenna Harper]

I know Maria Callas,she is from my country,she lost her voice in the end

[Mrs. Jones]

I thought the same thing about Amy's "Body & Soul" performance. Actually, I was quite saddened when I first heard it - not because of her death, but because her voice alone was showed that too much damage was done. I don't know if her voice could have ever come back too much from that.

It's refreshing to read, because I get tired of people saying how great she sounded in Body and Soul. Her voice there is clearly damaged...now that's not to say that she didn't have talent anymore, or that her phrasing was no longer impeccable. The girl still had it, for sure. But her voice was changed. I think people struggle to see the difference (the same way they can confuse technique with sounding good, as you clearly explained).
I don't know anything about singing (technically - I just know what I like to listen to), but I always felt that Billie didn't have much of a singing voice, what makes her stand out from the rest is her emotion and phrasing whcih are quite unique...although you can definately hear the damage in her voice in her later stuff.