68 replies to this topic

[pearljo]

You type fast, Julie. I've been typing a while so....

the one is five bipolars who commit suicide do we know if they were already on medication?

>>>Unmedicated or not compliant with meds in almost all cases. That's why meds are critical. Bipolar is very hard to diagnose. They have to see it and I think it averages 8 years to spot bipolar. The brain is complicated, we all know that.

also what happens when these drugs 'poop out' - no drug lasts forever.

<<<I know people that have been on Lithium for 30 years. If your drug poops out, your doc has another. Many people do good on xyz drug but stop taking it. When they figure out that their doc wasn't so dumb they start it again..it doesn't work. They don't know why. Never stop meds without telling your doc.

it is worrying that people on the FDA have ties to the pharmaceutical companies they vote on new illnesses/medicines with a great deal of bias.

>>>>Agreed.

i wish that someone had given me this list of questions to ask the doc about SSRI's when i first got put on anti depressants 15 years ago:

....When I started 30 years ago, it was pre-prozac and I felt a lot of shame. But I was quickly approaching hell. I took an old tricyclic called Amitriptyline. A major butt-kicker. I'm not a huge fan of SSRI's and I've taken all of them. From my first med, I asked the pharmacist for the package insert. There was no internet but I found my way.

Ask if you can be on SSRI drugs forever?

>>>I asked my current psychiatrist, who I love and respect, if I could ever get off of bipolar meds. He said if I was stable for two years then yes, maybe. I can't stay stable for 6 months, not totally.

Ask your doctor if he has a plan for you for when it comes time to stop or the drug stops working?

>>>>I see my doctor as a scientist. He would ask many questions to see exactly what's happening and make an informed decision. A good doctor is way ahead of their patients.

Ask your doctor that question.

>>>>Which one?

Ask him about withdrawal.

>>>>Withdrawal can be managed. Paxil and Effexor are terrible in this. Many people in the old days went months trying to handle brain shocks. This is how you beat that. Work down to as low of a dose as you can manage, the doctor will then give you a couple of Prozac. It has a very long half-life and allows your body to get rid of all the drugs without withdrawal.

Go online and learn about withdrawal and read stories about it.

>>>>Education is good but I don't take everything I read to heart. But over the years I know where to find good info and I discuss that with my doctor.

Read the pros and cons.

>>>>Yes. I take Lithium. If I screw up and take too much it can hurt my kidneys or kill me. That's why you blood test Lithium levels. I take Seroquel and have gained weight. It can also cause diabetes regardless of weight gain. I take Lamictal which can cause a life threatening rash, especially in children, that basically burns your skin off. It's called Stevens-Johnson Syndrome and I suggest not doing an image search on it. Antibiotics can also cause SJS.
The pros of flying are to travel quickly. The cons are an occasional missle flying towards earth from 30,000;.

Now, regardless or what you read, good and bad, ask why there are so many cons?

>>>>Lawyers! Package inserts for new drugs may not have all that many cons compared to old drugs. As time goes by, 3 people might develop constipation on the drug, 10 people, blurry vision, etc those are added. All of the drugs I take have pages of side effects. I may feel 2-3 side effects total from all 6 of them.


Why are there so many horror stories and people suffering and struggling?

>>>>Truth is, many people DO NOT take their meds as prescribed. 60-80% of bipolars self medicate, especially booze. If people don't do what their doctors say, then it isn't the doctors fault. And there are a lot of horror stories because these are horrible diseases.

Ask why there is a person taking the time to write this?

>>>>I've got 12,000 posts on a mental health forum. We all worry, we all wonder, many are desperate. I knew 3 people well there that committed suicide. We all ask these questions. People tend to think that those of us on psych meds are pill popping zombies that love taking pills. We try to educate ourselves but many know, no meds-no life.


Now ask your doctor what the most delicate, important, least understood, vital, intricate part of the human body is?

>>>>Your doctor knows darned well. Psychiatrists have more schooling that almost all medical professions. They don't go to community college for 2 years to practice.

Now ask him what part of the body the pills he is giving you are directly chemically manipulating?

>>>>Manipulating is a negative connotation. It's much closer to 'righting' brain chemistry.

Now ask him what tests he is going to put you through, other than your brief oral description of how you are feeling, to determine exactly what chemical imbalance you have that needs to be altered?

>>>>If I go into a psychiatrist's office for the first time catatonically depressed, there may be few questions that I can answer or paperwork I can fill out. He may go for short hospital stay to get someone in that state stabilized.

Now ask yourself how many other alternatives you have looked into, and really fully committed to, before having no choice but to chemically alter your brain?

>>>>Good luck with that. If you haven't been out of your bedroom for 6 months are you going to jog to Whole Foods for St Johns Wart? If you want to die but don't have enough energy to do it, will eating only organic fruita and vegetables pull you out. No, but you might be healthier when you jump off a 20 story building.

Thats it.
Just ask.

>>>>You should always advocate for yourself but if you are very sick you might not be in a place where you can grill a psychiatrist on every downside of psychiatry. Again, risk benefit. Thousands of people everyday say screw these meds, I will never take them again. Some tough it out. I wish them well.

>>>>And most people think psychiatry is some voodoo witchcraft and doctors shoot from the hip because they can't possibly know what they're doing.

>>>>People OD on aspirin daily. It doesn't take many Tylenol to kill you or ruin your liver. Amy smoked crack, did heroin, and drank till she died. If she would have been treated properly people would have managed to make psych meds even worse.

>>>>My final comment is, if you don't feel that psychiatry is your cup of tea, don't do it. There are plenty of people that do need it and I can promise you, at least for me, I've studied this stuff and would love not having to take it. But I love being alive more and those are my choices. We all have a choice.

note: There are crises' around the world where psych meds aren't available. Young, rural Chinese women are killing themselves in droves by drinking insecticide. Many more examples like this.

[Miss Mermaid]

[MENTION=1041]julieannboo[/MENTION] I understand and agree with a lot of what you're saying. I do think that psychiatric drugs - especially antidepressants - are way overprescribed nowadays. I know several people who got prescribed SSRIs after seeing a GP they'd never met before for 10 minutes, who went through a 9 question depression checklist with them, did not delve into the reasons for their "depression" or a detailed history of their symptoms and did not offer any counselling or other talking therapies. These people felt down and vulnerable at the time so they did not think to ask the doctor any of the questions you mentioned. In many of these cases I believe medication was not the solution.

Bipolar disorder is not like a single episode of situational depression though. It is a serious lifelong illness which cannot be diagnosed in 10 minutes and for which there is as yet no cure, and most people do need medication to control it. When you get so depressed you cannot function and so manic you no longer have control over your actions and are psychotic and this happens on a regular basis, something needs to be done or you don't survive. Unfortunately medical science still has a long way to go when it comes to psychiatric disorders. Unfortunately there is no perfect drug and most have some nasty side effects, but in the end you have to weigh up the risks and the benefits.

i was meant to say i only have experience with depression/anxiety and SSRI's so i do not claim to know about any other mental health problem x

also the drug companies do not tell people the potential side effects of SSRI's. if they did then people could make an informed choice and weigh it all up.

Edited by Miss Mermaid, 12 March 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[pearljo]

I know, like Cecilia said that some doctors pass out SSRI's like jellybeans. I worked with a lady whose gynecologist had her on 2 SSRI's...a very bad thing that can lead to serotonin syndrome...you don't want it. You should never get psych meds from any doctor except a psychiatrist.

Depression and ADHD are both over treated and under treated. Many don't need to be on these drugs. But maybe more do. Men don't seek help for depression, they try to drink it away.

With psych meds, you must do talk therapy. Don't keep gulping pills when you can't face the fact that you are abusing your children and cheating on their mother. Or if you have unresolved issues that may have been partially responsible for triggering your depression.

My psychiatrist recommended a CbT therapist down the hall. I have two sets of eyes and ears to hear me. Psychiatrist give you 30 minute appointments and that's not a lot of time but my doc can ask 3 questions and know where I'm at. I've seen him a long time. Sometimes questions are hardly necessary.

I talk to my therapist about meds, too. He will send a note to my doc saying, Phil really thinks he needs this or doesn't need this and my doc puts it in my file and does what he feels will work.

If you can get these two professions working together, you're giving yourself the best chance at a better life.

[Miss Mermaid]

You type fast, Julie. I've been typing a while so....



Ask your doctor if he has a plan for you for when it comes time to stop or the drug stops working?

>>>>I see my doctor as a scientist. He would ask many questions to see exactly what's happening and make an informed decision. A good doctor is way ahead of their patients.

but alot of doctors do not know about the bad withdrawal of SSRI's-. i have had to tell my doctor how i want to wean off. most docs are not educated at how bad the side effects are. they think that you can come off paxil within a couple of months. maybe some people can but alot of people cant. I was on 20mg paxil for the past 12 years. I am doing a very slow taper of 10% every 3-6 weeks - i am looking at 19 months taper in total. people think that you can cut this drug in half and wean within a few months. most cant. GSK will not admit to how bad side effects are. i put on alot of weight, slept all the time, was apathetic towards my friends and family and felt 'numb' to alot of things.

After being on drugs for x amount of time sooner or later they eventually stop working and you are in withdrawal whilst still taking them. you go to the doctors and instead of realising that it is the drugs that have stopped working docs put you on another drug. then you are having effects of having stopped the first drug while getting used to the new drug. then what happens when the second drug stops working? you enter the polydrugging merry go round.

There have been drug trials for zofloft where non depressed people who tested the drug killed themselves a few days after started this drug. Paxil and prozac have also had bad press where people taking these have killed themselves and/or family members.

SSRI's are bad, bad news. some people were even prescribed them for IBS!!

SSRI's are this generation of thalidomide - the terrible morning sickness drug given to pregnant women in the 1950's. Now they are drugging children with ritalin. Tragic.

Drug companies dont want people to get better - there is no money in that. they make their money on the comeback.

as i said i only know about depression/anixety and i now know that good mental health cannot be found in a pill.

i wish that i was given the whole picture when i was prescribed paxil so i could have made an informed choice.

hope that you are well x p.s. the ask your doc bit was a cut and paste!

---------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

meant say that someone said that prescribed drugs would have helped amy.

wasn't she on lithum?

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------

I know, like Cecilia said that some doctors pass out SSRI's like jellybeans. I worked with a lady whose gynecologist had her on 2 SSRI's...a very bad thing that can lead to serotonin syndrome...you don't want it. You should never get psych meds from any doctor except a psychiatrist.

Depression and ADHD are both over treated and under treated. Many don't need to be on these drugs. But maybe more do. Men don't seek help for depression, they try to drink it away.

With psych meds, you must do talk therapy. Don't keep gulping pills when you can't face the fact that you are abusing your children and cheating on their mother. Or if you have unresolved issues that may have been partially responsible for triggering your depression.

My psychiatrist recommended a CbT therapist down the hall. I have two sets of eyes and ears to hear me. Psychiatrist give you 30 minute appointments and that's not a lot of time but my doc can ask 3 questions and know where I'm at. I've seen him a long time. Sometimes questions are hardly necessary.

I talk to my therapist about meds, too. He will send a note to my doc saying, Phil really thinks he needs this or doesn't need this and my doc puts it in my file and does what he feels will work.

If you can get these two professions working together, you're giving yourself the best chance at a better life.

i def. think that most people need therapy and not just a SSRI to get them out of the docs office.

[pearljo]

but alot of doctors do not know about the bad withdrawal of SSRI's-. i have had to tell my doctor how i want to wean off. most docs are not educated at how bad the side effects are. they think that you can come off paxil within a couple of months. maybe some people can but alot of people cant. I was on 20mg paxil for the past 12 years. I am doing a very slow taper of 10% every 3-6 weeks - i am looking at 19 months taper in total. people think that you can cut this drug in half and wean within a few months. most cant. GSK will not admit to how bad side effects are. i put on alot of weight, slept all the time, was apathetic towards my friends and family and felt 'numb' to alot of things.

>>>>Are you talking psychiatrists? Everything you wrote screams really bad doctor. Not all doctors are created equal and if your doc doesn't know his or her ass from a hole in the ground, the time to change was 11 years ago. We often don't know that.

After being on drugs for x amount of time sooner or later they eventually stop working and you are in withdrawal whilst still taking them. you go to the doctors and instead of realising that it is the drugs that have stopped working docs put you on another drug. then you are having effects of having stopped the first drug while getting used to the new drug. then what happens when the second drug stops working? you enter the polydrugging merry go round.

Good doctors can't solve every problem but of those you mentioned, most can. Like my Prozac example. I've very rarely been on just one drug but I've been on 6, right now, that have worked better and had less SE's than one. When I took Paxil, they added Ritalin because I think I've been ADD my whole life. It made a tremendous difference. SSRI's cause cognitive dulling and Ritalin helped.

There have been drug trials for zofloft where non depressed people who tested the drug killed themselves a few days after started this drug. Paxil and prozac have also had bad press where people taking these have killed themselves and/or family members.

Tens of millions take these drugs safely. If these random examples were commonplace, these drugs wouldn't be on the market. No one should die from meds but things happen. It's a tiny percentage. Again, risk benefit.

SSRI's are bad, bad news. some people were even prescribed them for IBS!!

I had severe gastric issues when I started on amitriptyline, non IBS, it was gone the next day along with perspiring through a suit in an air conditioned office. I would have eaten parakeet shit to stop those problems. I can't know what a docs reason for the IBS deal but Amitriptyline was a drug made to treat TB, when it was given to patients in a ward, their mood improved so who knows? Now it's still a very effective AD.

SSRI's are this generation of thalidomide - the terrible morning sickness drug given to pregnant women in the 1950's. Now they are drugging children with ritalin. Tragic.

SSRI's are nowhere close to thalidomide. They would be pulled from the market like right now. I have a friend who takes Ritalin and he's the top paramedic in Austin. He was also the first kid in the Dallas ISD ever put on it...45 years ago. The Ritalin debate will never end.

Drug companies dont want people to get better - there is no money in that. they make their money on the comeback.

I don't like drug companies and never have but I take issue with people that say that they want to keep us sick. It's no different than saying these same drug companies making chemo want to keep their patients sick. These companies suck but there are thousands of very smart, dedicated researchers that bust their ass trying to cure these diseases, I really believe that. I mean, you could say the same about Parkinson's or MS or childhood leukemia. I choose to believe that there are actually good, committed people fighting for funding to do better.

as i said i only know about depression/anixety and i now know that good mental health cannot be found in a pill.

Not in a pill alone, no.

i wish that i was given the whole picture when i was prescribed paxil so i could have made an informed choice.

I assume you were very depressed. Would it have mattered? Dr Andrew Weil, Mr Holistic Medicine said, If I have a cold, give me these herbs. But if I'm in a head on collision, get me to a trauma center.

Mental illness very often is trauma center material. I don't like it. I envy people that never take pills. I'd be skinny if I didn't have to take them. I wouldn't have had sexual dysfunction on many meds. On and on. But I have to believe I made the right choice. When I was just being treated for depression and asked my doc to ween me off, as the dose got low the word turned grey and everything was depressing. I didn't want it to be, I wanted to be well. But it just wasn't in the cards for me. I have to be treated.

One note..A hundred+-years ago, I may have been in an asylum for life and maybe gotten a lobotomy. I could have been chained to a wall in isolation. Later I could have been given ECT with no sedative or muscle relaxant therefore breaking bones.

Do you know why there are just a few insane asylums left in the world? A French scientist invented a drug called thorazine in the '50's. Suddenly, paranoid schizophrenics were, well, normal enough to be let out to build a life. Thorazine is still used today but there are better meds now. The asylums are gone and it was medicine that made this huge change possible.

---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 PM ----------

I should add that I don't think meds should always be used because they shouldn't. But if you have a mental illness..depression, bipolar, BPD, schizophrenia, anxiety, PTSD, then you aren't the best person to make the call.

When I first got help it was a therapist. After seeing me several times she recommended me to a psychiatrist in her office. The rest, as they say, is history.

Edited by pearljo, 12 March 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Birdieava]

http://sam-vaknin.su...-bipolar-a10165

Above is a link with information about both conditions. I only know BD because l have been diagnosed by several doctors. For years I refused diagnose.

I followed "chemical" treatment.for many years, about 5. I stopped taking meds in 2006. I still cycle, sometimes.daily. l sometimes cause my husband fear of the unknown. He hates pills too. Anyways, I am never 'too bad', i can get extremely moody if l let my emotions do that. But our life is good, and we are very grateful.

(The BD onset for me happened at 26. After severe depression and a week long hospitalization following a scary manic "episode").

After reading about BPD l tend to agree that this is how Amys problems started when she was very young. With a "personality disorder".
It explains everything. Love cravings, self medication thru drugs/alcohol, refusal x treatment. Denial maybe. I mean, she was so honest about her feelings in her songs.

I've watched a few songs from Belgrade. She was cycling so rapidly.Some form of serious intervention was due and completely justified - didn't happen.

I believe.the "trigger" was blakes son's birth. She realised blake was gone.forever.

I guess we cannot piece this all together 100% because both mitch and blake have stated that amy had a very hard time talking about her feelings.... I wish Amy were still around. I wish she would have taken "happy pills" in st Lucia. Maybe she did. She looked amazing when she got.back to London, l suspect there was some form of medical (chemical) treatment while she was in the caribbean. I can see her progress. She did amazing. Whether.she was really.seeking to completely .recover, or just "getting by". It turned out fatal - I still cannot believe it. Xo

[Miss Mermaid]

thanks Phil.

we will have to agree to disagree! x

Edited by Miss Mermaid, 13 March 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[pearljo]

No biggie, Julie. I just hope we can all keep our head above water. Not just me and you but everyone that has to live with mental illness. It's a disease that we have to fight alone. I don't think that any friend or family member has taken a few hours to read about bipolar or what it's like to live with. When I was hospitalized for 4 days I didn't get one call. But hey, why call? It was only a suicide attempt.

[amysarmynow]

"...I suspect that we (big fans) are not the targeted demographic for this book. The working title alone betrays as much. It will be a big supermarket seller to the casual, biog-type reader. In that regard, it might do a lot of good as it's in and on the minds of casual and non-fans that the real crimes have been committed...."

Absolutely.

I have tons of data which clearly indicates the demo that needs to hear the "image rehab" is indeed the "casual and non-fans." They were always the targets of the vile propaganda. They CAN be "unbrainwashed," but it will take a lot of hardwork and time.

There will likely be some "definitive" elements in Mitch's book. But, I view the volume as the opening salvo in the "fight back" efforts that are now slowly starting to take shape. His book will give the rest of us an
excellent opportunity to start winning the war against the LIES that wrongfully poisoned the minds of the "casual and non-fans."


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